Saddle up, cowboys and cowgirls.
I’m about to swiftly bonk you over the head with some information, and then you’re going to provide your input, thoughts, and opinions on the matter. It’ll be quick, but it might not be wholly painless. It depends on how you look at it.
Isn’t that true of all of life, though? How you look at it determines what you get out of it.
While I do some bonking, keep today’s Community Question in mind:
Where Do YOU Draw the Line at Natural?
Deciding where you’re going to put your foot down – with the products you use both on your skin and in your household – is a step you’re going to take sooner or later, as you delve further into living more naturally. Many of you already have a firmly-planted foot.
My line is drawn, my foot is down, when it comes to things like synthetic fragrances, preservatives like pthalates or synthetic parabens, pretty much anything that’s a petroleum byproduct.
Everything on the other side of that tends to be a little murky, and it depends on my mood, my energy level, or my trust in “green chemicals” on any given day. I’m skeptical about anything that doesn’t have a botanical name attached to it in a product. I’m skeptical, but open to learning more.
However.
This is supposed to be a big however.
Let me make it bigger.
HOWEVER.
Just because something comes from a plant doesn’t make it pure or, depending on how you answer today’s Community Question, even natural.
Let me give you some really important examples (cover your heads; this is where I’m bonking you):
- Xylitol: We discussed this extensively – and quite controversially it turned out (boy, people are really outspoken about their xylitol) – last year in this post called Xylitol: Should We Stop Calling It Natural? Why did I ask that question? Mainly because the majority of xylitol consumed in the world is a) produced from corn, which is likely GMO, b) the extraction of xylitol from corn (or birch) is done using several chemical processes utilizing things like sulfuric and phosphoric acid. and the end result is a very concentrated “natural” compound that we consume in quantities not present in actual natural, from the earth, ingredients.
- Grapefruit Seed Extract: (NOT to be confused with grapefruit essential oil) You’ve probably seen this ingredient in several natural products over the last couple of years, as it’s gained a name as a “natural” preservative. However, it turns out that the chemical extraction process of grapefruit seed extract (using things like ammonium chloride and hydrochloric acid) turns much of the GSE into another chemical called diphenol hydroxybenzene. Stephanie at Chemical of the Day outlines the natural/unnatural (and potentially skin irritating) process here, and even goes so far as to call grapefruit seed extract a synthetic chemical.
- Cocamidopropyl Betaine: Another ingredient (like my pet-peeve ingredient, phenoxyethanol) found in many “natural” skincare and haircare products. Cocamidopropyl betaine is manufactured by reacting coconut oil with a couple of chemicals, starting with a chemical called 3-dimethylaminopropylamine. The end result is what’s called a surfactant (the stuff that really scrubs you clean and bubbles up), and it’s an allergen for many people. Yes, it started with coconut oil. But did it end in a natural state?
- White Vinegar: This is going to throw you. But did you know that white vinegar can be (and is, in some cases) created by making ethyl alcohol out of petroleum? Your white vinegar could, in fact, be a petroleum byproduct. If it’s not made from petroleum, it is made from corn, unless otherwise stated, and is most likely harvested from GMO corn. Unless it’s distinguished as “organic.” Confused yet? The Eco-Mum actually did a great deal of research on this topic and came to the conclusion that if your white vinegar contains the word “distilled,” then it is likely from plant sources (meaning corn) and if it says “dilute acetic acid” then it is likely synthetic from petroleum sources. That’s a lot to take in, I know. But this is what we’re dealing with.
Those are just a few examples in the mucky waters of what can be considered “natural” or not. There are many others, including just about every non-botanical ingredient you’ll find on the back of your “natural” personal care products.
This seems dire, so let me share some good news.
Everything listed above is, as of now, a great deal safer in terms of its potential issues as carcinogens or hormone disruptors. Most of it is under-studied, though. Many so-called green chemicals are approved and pumped out into the market without any scientific knowledge of the long-term effects.
But, then again, so are almost all plant products. Most plant products don’t have a lot of scientific studies behind them; we often only have historical successes to base our judgments on. “Green” chemicals, though, do not have that latter luxury.
If only this “natural living” was a black and white issue, you know? If only the world was black and white. It would be so much easier. But far less enthralling.
We all know that not all plants are safe (poison ivy, anyone?) and not all lab-born chemicals are deathly toxic. But I think it’s an important step to determine the difference, for yourself, between what is actually natural and this new, quizzical definition manufacturers are utilizing these days.
I will not be giving up my distilled vinegar (made from corn), even though I HATE that it’s made from corn that started as GMO. I don’t avoid grapefruit seed extract like I do synthetic parabens and phalates, but I am cautious about it. You won’t catch me within six feet of xylitol, because it kills my stomach and it doesn’t trump stevia in any way, shape, or form in any area. And cocamidopropyl betaine? It’s probably less questionable and potentially contaminated than sodium lauryl and sodium laureth sulfates, at least. That’s the only good thing I can say about it.
People like the FDA, the USDA, and the manufacturers get to determine what’s printed on the label as “natural” or “organic.” But we here in our homes get to decide what WE determine is natural. Where we’ll draw the line. (And it starts with being informed, so we’re well on our way!)
So. Community Question:
Do you consider the items on the list above as “natural” ingredients? Are products created from excessive chemical extraction and reaction something you consciously and specifically avoid?
Do you have any ingredients that you DO avoid like the plague? Are they “natural” or not?
(High-fructose corn syrup is really coming to mind right now. Is IT “natural”?)
Where do YOU draw the line at natural?
YOUR Simply Thoughtful Steps to Change Your Life and the World
Is it okay to not give a rip about the vinegar? Cuz I just don’t care at the moment. I don’t love white vinegar. I don’t eat it. I don’t think any of us would die if we did.
GMO or corn or even petroleum based vinegar is the least of my concerns when it comes to chemicals in my stuff.
I worry more about my allergic reaction to methylchloroisothiazolinone. And yes, I can spell it and pronounce now that I’ve had to do research on it.
All the other items mentioned–xylitol, HFS and so forth. I avoid it. I quit baking and I don’t add sweetener to a lot of things like coffee or Cheerios (like my husband does). Everything is just so so sweet and I don’t need it.
I really love Marie’s message above. Bloody brilliant perspective.
I think informing ourselves is the key, and so is remembering that not every body (Yes, I separated EVERY BODY on purpose) will react the same to Anything. Just because something is Organic or comes from a plant does not make it safe or therapeutic for All. And, there are many elements taken from plants that are altered in labs to extract the beneficial parts, made into medicine that many people need to survive. Would I prefer to use food as medicine? Yes. But the fact is that our very earth and environment is so polluted that it Is Very Hard to draw lines. I think it is an individual thing, and not to be judged. We are bombarded daily with what is good and what is bad… it be so overwhelming that sometimes my line is drawn at trying to sift through what I’m told, take a break, and then listen to my body.
I consider things derived from petroleum to be completely natural. Petroleum is a naturally occurring substance that is the end result of hundreds of millions of years and countless billions of metric tons of decayed biomass.
I can safely make soap in my kitchen – should I eat it?
You make things in a kitchen; you can also make things in a lab. Why does the lab get so much hate? It’s typically because a laboratory is associated with people that do things that most other people do not understand. Something that is not understood leads easily to hate and mistrust.
Technically, olive oil isn’t natural, because it doesn’t occur naturally in the physical world but few people would exclude it for that reason. Corn, ANY corn that exists today is not natural, therefore your white vinegar will never be ‘natural’ whatever that means.
As for toxicity, as you well know, the dose makes the toxin. Everything is toxic. Some things just take less to hurt a person. The problem with a black-and-white natural lifestyle is that we don’t live in a black-and-white type of world and we can’t make those kind of choices – we have to compromise with reality – sort of like using the internet on a computer inside a room inside a house with a utility connection to an electric power plant to talk about natural living on a blog.
But then again, humans are natural beings, and therefore could not their creations be considered ‘natural’?
Late to the party but this is a great perspective especially about the petroleum and the olive oil.
Points for you!
Many years ago I came up with my own ideals. Anything that can safely be made in my own kitchen is food. Anything that must be made in a lab is not food. I think that the definitions transfer well to personal care products.
I love your outlook on life and the way you do your research as well as citing your sources. Not many people do. Crunchy Betty articles are helping me to draw the line, as you so eloquently said. I do have something to point out, though; every single piece of produce or animal product that is available today is genetically modified. Selective breeding is picking preferred genetics in attempt to improve on current stock, be it vegetable or animal based. As examples of GMO vegetation, both wild wheat and snap peas before cultivation had exploding seed pods for propagation. The better the explosion, the farther the seeds were flung, the more successful the parent plant was in passing on its genetics. Hunter/gatherers found the defective plants that didn’t explode and started cultivating those because they were more reliable to harvest. Wild rice propagated the same way, now that I think about it. Further examples of seletive breeding in the plant world are apples, which rely on grafting to reproduce, as well as most other fruit and nut trees and avocados which only have 2 (!) Sets of genetics in the entire world. A seed grown from an avocado pit will be a clone of its parent. “GMO” is a catch all term, these days!
I do apologise for how intense this post probably comes across as. I didn’t realize this was a hot button for me! A quick way to see what I’ve spelled out in a peer reviewed source, Jared Diamond put out a book , “Guns, Germs and Steel” where he has over 30 pages of peer reviewed documentation supporting the argument above.
hear, hear! fascinating article, great job
btw..in regard to your comment “not all plants are safe..poison ivy, anyone.” i take homeopathic poison ivy regularly…it is called “rhus tox” i use the 200C or 1M potency.. only one pellet in 4 oz. water, and sip from that every 20 min. until you see a difference… it is absolutely the best thing ever for cold sores, or fever blisters if you like the sound of that better.. nothing that any doctor ever gave me worked except for this. if you take it right when you see the first sign of a bump, crack, or discoloration on your lip, it will not get worse… if i don’t take it, well..it ain’t pretty !! so there ya go.. poison ivy is my favorite plant !!!
it was suggested by a nutritionist that i substitute stevia for sugar; bad idea !!! i tried it for almost a year and had the worst, most foul smelling gas you could possibly imagine. since cutting out sugar did make it easier to lose weight, i didn’t want to believe that it was the stevia that was causing the problem, especially after it was recommended by a really good nutritionist.. as soon as i stopped taking stevia, the problem went away.. it is an interesting note that this stuff was banned in the U.S. and other countries, but is now listed as GRAS (generally recognized as safe). i don’t like the sound of that ..do you?
Hi Chris,
I’m a farmer and have grown a couple types of stevia. The dried leaves can make a great sweetener and as you know may be very beneficial to those in need or desiring a natural sugar substitute.
Beans and broccoli give me gas too. Everyone’s body processes differently. It doesn’t necessarily make the substance bad.
Just food for thought;)
Did not know about the white vinegar. I make Kombucha vinegar but it falls more in the line of apple in recipes.
So interesting what is done to our food chain…Nothing is cut and dry in our little world of greed. So thank-full that people like you spread the word to help us make conscious choices. We are more powerful than we think as consumers. WE can change so many things just by what we purchase or chose not to purchase, because ultimately what sells is what is going to be produced, Bottom line.
Can you talk to the CHEMIST and ask his thoughts are on the use of Stevia?
Sodium lauryl and sodium laureth sulfates are actually palm oil, which contributes greatly to rainforest deforestation in Borneo, Sumatra, and many other rainforests. For this reason I always avoid them or any other name palm oil goes by.
Heinze distilled white vinegar is made from apples. At least that’s what is says on the bottle. Others bottles I have checked don’t say or they are petroleum based.
I am so VEHEMENTLY anti-GMO that the idea of corn being the base of most vinegar makes me want to scream! Mainly in frustration over the fact that this never occurred to me when it’s so incredibly obvious. I mean, what else would it be made of? DUH!
So now I’ll be using homemade ACV to clean instead of buying the big jugs of white vinegar at the store. No more cores in the compost pile!
That being said, we are pretty hard core about everything being as safe and natural as possible. We have a few pets so it’s important to make sure everything in our home is safe enough that it won’t harm in any way upon accidental ingestion.
We go out of our way to not support the industries that do harm, – Chocolate, Petroleum, Palm, GMO, and so on. It’s really a lot easier than most would think. We belong to an organic CSA and love getting our box of organic fruits and veggies every week and – BONUS! – they deliver to our door. Gotta love it. As far as sweeteners go we stick with raw honey, and maple syrup. You really can’t go wrong with those two and they taste great. Meat and dairy sparingly, when we can find it grass fed, and antibiotic free. We choose to support our local farmers, bee keepers, and businesses because it’s the right thing to do, but it’s also very convenient. (That being said, when a far away friend in New Zealand sends us Manuka honey as a gift, we are thrilled!)
We’ve been no ‘poo for years already, and use Dr Bronner’s baby soap sparingly in the shower. We make our own deodorant, moisturize with coconut oil and some raw cocoa butter sent by a friend. We clean and do laundry with Dr Bronner’s Sal Suds and vinegar. Plastics are out of the question so all food containers are glass.
“Natural” to me really means I can make it myself easily, and it’s safe to ingest. I could make soap, but we choose to support Dr. Bronner’s company because of their commitment to the environment and their great corporate structure. As close to nature as possible is always a good rule.
Petroleum isn’t a GMO product, at least. Slave-free, child-labor-free, fair trade chocolate and carefully sourced, fair-trade palm oil from west Africa does exist. It might be easier to just avoid all that stuff – or you can not be lazy and support those that want to turn those industries around.
I just choose to be simple. I make my own everything, crackers, breads, hair products, skin products, hygienic, etc. I’ll buy things like organic extra virgin olive oil, coconut oil, nut butters, and castile soap. Everything else I stick to what nature provides to us. Yes, it sounds a lot but I manage to commit to this going to school for 9 hours a day and personal training. Taking care of yourself is SOOO worth it, can’t stress that enough. I barely get sick anymore (a mild cold every two years if I’m unlucky), my hair and skin just glow, and I’m always energized. It’s not too good to be true, I promise you that. You just need commitment to spend 2 hours a week preparing everything.
What could you use instead of the Distilled White Vinegar? I was surprised to find out it was most likely a petroleum byproduct since a lot of homemade “natural” cleaners have it listed in their recipes. I won’t give it up soon (just bought a big bottle yesterday) but am always looking for alternatives as I run out of things. Thanks 🙂
Thank you for revealing so many of the falsely advertised “natural” ingredients. My line is drawn right next to yours. I especially agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Xylitol. I have a condition called Interstitial Cystitis which can react very negatively to processed ingredients and man made chemicals. Xylitol sets me off every time.
I feel the need to defend my one true love: sweet Lady Chemistry. I think many people attach the label “natural” to anything they are familiar with, whether it’s found in nature or not, and use the word “chemical” to indicate something man-made; but all matter is chemical. If laboratory synthesis makes something bad, ditch the baking soda and isopropyl alcohol (baking soda occurs rarely in nature and is produced in a very un-eco-friendly way) and opt for something more natural, like cocaine or cyanide. Science is wonderful, it’s just misunderstood, give it a chance. If you can’t pronounce something, learn, then decide if it is something you want in your body. Everything “natural” is packed full of chemicals that can be helpful or deadly or both, depending on the individual’s needs. Some preservatives are not fit for consumption, but that doesn’t make the concept bad, unless we want to go back to a time when psychedelic alkaloids were invisibly growing on bread. Surprise! The whole “natural” movement is kind of reactionary– the real problem is that nobody is paying researchers to replace outdated preservation technology with additives that keep bugs out but don’t cause cancer. For me, the point isn’t where the chemicals came from, it’s about making my own products using just the chemicals that benefit me, researching the benefit and harm, and living independently. I do it not to be closer to nature, but to be closer to science. With all the chemical knowledge available, there’s no excuse for wasting money on marketing schemes when you just need a bottle of peroxide and a good pair of goggles. I am thankful that nature made chemicals in lemons that clear up the streaky, greasy residue Lysol left in my kitchen, but I’m also thankful that a lab made chemicals that prevent nature’s chemicals from killing me before I even do the dishes.
I am continuing my comment here becauae the comment system isnt so tablet freindly. As for what I avoid – silicones… Anything ending in -xane or -cone. I avoid sulfates, EDTA, PVC, acetates, and most waxes. Now thats just hair and skin products.
When it comes to food, I avoid HFC and artifical colors.
Unfortunately, my poor dog had an issue a while back. When I started reaserching to find out why he had suddenly become allergic to his his uber expensive dog food, I found that a huge supply (millions of tons) of human food grade corn that had gone moldy had hit the animal feed market where it was considered perfectly acceptable for the “organic” dog food makers to buy it and then use it to make their swill and then sell me food that now makes my dog sick at a grossly inflated price. Guess which brand of dog food passed on the moldy corn? Of all things it was Ol Roy from Wal-mart.
I just dont trust anyone unless I know them personally.
I learnt long ago to not trust the Natural label. Uranium after all is natural.
If you pour ammonium chloride and hydrochloric acid on grapefruit seeds they naturally turn into something else. Following up on your historical plant idea, do we really know what chemicals we are creating when we slather Worcestershire sauce and a bunch of other stuff on a steak then apply fairly high heat to it? Not really.
Unnatural things can’t exist only things that good or bad if we ingest them and start the chemical reaction we call digestion. If the outcome is bad too often the survivors tend to shy away that concoction ( or feed it to their mother-in-law) if the outcome is good or pleasant it becomes a food stuff.
In my opinion once it is processed beyond squeezing, cutting, grinding, etc, then it is not Natural. If it could not be made in a small village without machinery or chemicals it is not Natural. The very definition of Natural is “existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind” Seems simple to me. Most things found in the center isles of stores are not natural. Most things sold at Whole Foods are not Natural.
I just checked my white vinegar that I use for cleaning and it is organic and is labeled “distilled”, so hopefully I’m okay there. The brand is Spectrum.
Overall, I am trying to be as hardcore as I can. We get a weekly CSA box of veggies and supplement with the Farmer’s market (everything organic). We buy grass-fed beef from a local ranch, 1/4 of a cow at a time. We drink raw milk. I have been “no ‘poo” for over a year and wash my face with honey in the morning and use the OCM at night. Made the banana milkshake hair mask last weekend -loved it! Make my own lotion (found a fab recipe online with cocoa butter. Side note -discovered you can use aloe vera gel in place of the water in most lotion recipes, which helps it to last longer and has the added benefits of aloe.
We pretty much use honey, maple syrup and coconut sugar for sweetening.
I’m thinking about trying soap nuts for the laundry. Threw out all my candles with artificial scents and switched to beeswax. Dumped my tupperware and nonstick stuff. Use glass and regular pans or the new “green” non stick.
I know I’m a little late on this, but you should definitely try out the soapnuts! I’ve been using them since February, I love them! They won’t treat stains or whiten whites, but if you pre-treat your stains, it’s fine. I soak my whites with Borax before washing with soapnuts, and they come out really white. Also, you can take the spent soapnuts and boil them down to make a great cleansing liquid. I could go on about them all day, they’re fan-freaking-tastic! *leaps down off soap(nut) box*
I’m on the no poo hair regime
Argh, just wrote a big ol’ response and then lost it along with my internet connection. I’ll try to be more concise this time…
I find it impossible to decide what is sufficiently “natural” in the abstract. I can’t come up with a theory of naturalness, if you will. Instead it usually boils down to a boots-on-the-ground choice of the lesser of evils, which in turn usually means picking the least processed version of a product.
But how rigorous I am in choosing depends on what I’m going to use the product for. With edible products, taste is a huge factor, whereas it’s not with cleaning products. (With personal grooming products I don’t care how they taste but I try not to use anything I couldn’t eat.) I’m a super taster, so there are a lot of things that taste disgusting to me! I can’t abide any artificial sweeteners, or stevia, or even beet sugar, even though the latter two are *arguably* “natural.” High fructose corn syrup doesn’t taste as yucky as the above though it doesn’t taste good. Fortunately, most of the time, the better tasting ingredients are usually also the more natural/less processed ones.
If I have to make a compromise, I’d rather it be with my toilet cleaner as opposed to what I put in or on my face. Now that I know the dirty truth about white vinegar, I’ll use the rest of mine to mop the floor and such, but I’ll only use apple cider vinegar on my person (which mostly was the case anyway, and I never cook with white vinegar). On the one hand, I suspect the GMO-ness of the corn used to make it probably won’t directly affect my body–that vinegar is awfully far removed from the frankencorn. But I don’t want to give any more money to the industrial-agriculture machine, because I KNOW the frankencorn is having a terrible effect on the environment.
So the “natural” issue is complicated by a plethora of social and environmental and even aesthetic (taste/odor) concerns.
Perhaps the focus should be more on “safe” than “natural”. I often think of the true definition of natural and am very convinced that everything we do is natural. We are a part of nature, therefore everything we make or build is natural. Bees manufacture honey, we manufacture other things, but those things are just as “natural” as honey because we, as animals, made them. That being said, I still make all of my own household cleaners and body care products (or they are purchased from what I deem to be a safe source with safe ingredients), and I feed myself and my animal friends species appropriate diets made with whole foods. I don’t think GMO foods are safe, so I avoid them. I don’t think sodium laureth sulfate is safe, so I avoid it. A company can really say anything is natural, but they can’t say anything is safe! (Ideologically speaking of course, since they can say just about anything they want!)
I agree on “safe” vs. “natural”, but you might consider 3rd party environmental effects too.
I’ll give an example of what I mean. I make my own fireworks. I won’t use most barium salts to make green fire, because I don’t have facilities I’d trust to keep these very toxic substances out of stuff that might be ingested. However, I do use barium sulfate, which can be swallowed safely. Yet regardless of what barium compound is used to make green fire, you wouldn’t want to inhale the smoke from that fire.
Perhaps the focus should be more on “safe” than “natural”. I often think of the true definition of natural and am very convinced that everything we do is natural. We are a part of nature, therefore everything we make or build is natural. Bees manufacture honey, we manufacture other things, but those things are just as “natural” as honey because we, as animals, made them. That being said, I still make all of my own household cleaners and body care products (or they are purchased from what I deem to be a safe source with safe ingredients), and I feed myself and my animal friends species appropriate diets made with whole foods. I don’t think GMO foods are safe, so I avoid them. I don’t think sodium laureth sulfate is safe, so I avoid it. A company can really say anything is natural, but they can’t say anything is safe! (Ideologically speaking of course, since they can say just about anything they want!)
Perhaps the focus should be more on “safe” than “natural”. I often think of the true definition of natural and am very convinced that everything we do is natural. We are a part of nature, therefore everything we make or build is natural. Bees manufacture honey, we manufacture other things, but those things are just as “natural” as honey because we, as animals, made them. That being said, I still make all of my own household cleaners and body care products (or they are purchased from what I deem to be a safe source with safe ingredients), and I feed myself and my animal friends species appropriate diets made with whole foods. I don’t think GMO foods are safe, so I avoid them. I don’t think sodium laureth sulfate is safe, so I avoid it. A company can really say anything is natural, but they can’t say anything is safe! (Ideologically speaking of course, since they can say just about anything they want!)
Would love to know what your take is on the “Norwex” products? My only experience is one of doubt and suspection of their claims.
To be honest, the world is so big and has so much stuff in it that I don’t even bother thinking of things in terms of good or bad (or natural/unnatural). Instead I tend to use or not use things in terms of simplicity—that’s how simple are the to use, how simple will they make my life, how simple are the ingredients and the process by which they are made, and so on.
Usually that makes any man-made materials few and far between, but I don’t worry about ‘unnatural’ things that slip through. I’m not going to shun something just because it’s unnatural, but I’m not going to buy something just because it’s natural either. I just stick to the simple stuff and go from there.
As with everything in my life, I try to keep this pretty simple, too. Eat as close to the source as possible. If you want bacon, eat bacon – not turkey bacon – imagine all the processing that had to go through to look, feel and taste like bacon. The same goes with butter vs margarine, Any vegetarian product (what does that poor humble little soybean have to withstand to become a “hotdog”? This is the same idea with everything, I ask myself :how much processing did this product have to go through to become what it is?” If the answer is more than a couple of steps that I couldn’t repeat on my own, I won’t eat it or use it. Thanks for the info on vinegar, though it was a little disheartening, that such a natural product could still be so screwed up!
Amen about the bacon! You know what really skeeves me out worse than turkey bacon? That bacon in the grocery store that’s usually near the refrigerated bacon, but instead of refrigeration, its in a cardboard box and “precooked” for our convenience. All we have to do is microwave! My Hubs always jokes about picking up a box when we grocery shop. That stuff makes me gag a little bit.
Along the same lines of not wanting to purchase petroleum based products, I try not to buy any products containing palm oil. I refuse to support an industry that is clear cutting rainforest. This is easier said than done. Palm oil is cheap and trans fat free (yay!), which means it is in EVERYTHING, from food to cosmetics. This is actually what led me to this blog, and I, and the red eyed tree frogs (my favorite!), are better off for it.
My policy is pretty simple: if I can’t make it at home with a reasonable amount of equipment, I don’t want it in my home. By that standard I do use distilled white vinegar still (though I am pondering experimenting with making my own vinegar) but none of the rest of those are used.
I’m not 100% consistent yet but I’m getting pretty close. My most difficult challenge has been my dishwasher detergent and clothes detergent. Dishes are left cloudy and towels don’t absorb water. I’m still trying though!
Just had to comment on your cloudy dishes and water resistant towels. You must have hard water. I gave up on the dishwasher, I use 7th Generation now. I just could not get the silverware and glasses clean enough for my liking, even thought they were sanitized, it grossed me out. As for the towels, you will have to strip them first. I’ve done several different things and nothing stands out as really working. Vinegar is good, epsom salt soaking is good. On your towels, use a detergent (Dr. Bronner’s Sal Suds or 7th Gen) and homemade for all your other clothes. The towels only get worse if you don’t deal with it right away. Take it from me! Good luck!
If it’s not something I can make at home with a recipe and a little know-how, then it’s not natural in my book. That doesn’t mean I won’t use it or think it’s unsafe, but I don’t feel it’s “natural”.
I’m with you on this one … pretty much I’m trying to look at what’s going INTO my mouth – and if I can’t pronounce it (and curries don’t count) I don’t want to eat it. If I don’t want to eat it, I don’t want to put it on my skin. BUT I’ve started to look with a critical eye at the ‘natural’ products out there. All those weird coconut chemical derivatives? I just don’t know if I really truly NEED super-bubbly soaps that much.
It takes a lot of thinking, yes. But in then end, when I find something I like, or can make myself, that’s all I need.
My deciding line is pretty clear… If I need a chemistry degree and a lab to fabricate an item, then it isn’t natural. Stuff like vinegar and essential oils are fine because I understand how they are made and I could repeat the process, albeit badly. (although I have made vinegar and it was good.) processed sweeteners, grape seed extract, etc… I shy away from because I can find a truly natural alternative. If something from nature can give me what I need then why should I use something processed on which a marketing agent slapped a shiny “natural” label?
I avoid Coco Betaine, Mineral Oil (under any and all of it’s names, cosmetics grade or not I don’t care I ain’t touching it!) The sulphates and parabens, also pretty much anything I can’t pronounce! I am terrified of aspartame and its friends and will use agave, maple syrup, coconut syrup or stevia instead but I don’t use stevia much really.
When Eco Mum posted about the vinegar I made a concerted effort to find ones that said distilled.
I make a small exception with preservatives, I don’t use a heap of skin creams etc so I figure a small amount of potassium sorbate is better than the other synthetic options.
Having studied chemistry for my degree I’ve learned that scientific names of chemicals can sound misleadingly complex or “scary”, sodium chloride (table salt) is a basic one, or that seemingly harmless and “natural” things can contain harmful chemicals, like urushriol in poison ivy (imagine a lotion who’s ingredients list had “naturally extracted organic urushriol” Put that way, it doesn’t sound so bad, yikes!) How I navigate the world of consumer products is to try and learn as much as possible about how substances INTERACT with our bodies, natural or not, and regardless of where they came from. A company can will try to sell their product no matter what and can put a positive light on almost anything unless you know better! I wouldn’t be afraid to buy a topical skincare product that contained sodium hydrogen carbonate (aka baking soda which I use to make my own deodorant) but aluminum chlorohydrate is evidenced by some studies to not be so safe. And on the issue of artificial sweeteners, I know from experience that if I eat too much honey, or fruit juice or anything that is naturally sweetened I will get a headache and become nauseous. Not because honey or fruit is harmful itself, but because it naturally causes my blood sugar to spike, it’s all about how my body reacts.
What’s tricky about knowing how chemicals react with our bodies is that the research into the harmful effects of an individual chemical is never spot on because our modern day population is exposed to a huge variety of chemicals, much more so than in the past. And to further the difficulties, our bodies are incredibly complex. And every time I go to buy something new and check the label, there is no way unless I had a PhD in chemistry, that I would know the latest research on every ingredient.
So What I do is keep things simple, and stick to products that contain very few ingredients, natural or not. I make my own deodorant out of 3 ingredients, which I know by experience and a little research do not cause irritation or damage to my skin, as well as making other toiletries like eyemakeup remover (2 ingr). I try to eat organic, because there is hopefully less “stuff” on and in organic food verses mainstream food. Even if an ingredient or product is derived or extracted through an unnatural method using many different chemicals, the end product will be in its pure form (as long as your getting it from a “reputable” source). That means that for example even though hydrochloric acid was used to obtain an extract, I know there isn’t going to actually be hydrochloric acid in the bottle of extract I buy at the store, so I don’t have a problem buying things like that as long as they were ethically produced. The best consumer defense is to be aware and educated.
I just randomly thought of an other example: cooking beef at too high of temperatures and too fast can cause cancer causing agents to form, even if it is all natural, 100% grass fed organic beef. Who knew??
I agree. They say the same thing about even olive oil; that if you cook it at too high temperatures, it’s chemical structure changes, and it becomes sort of toxic. They say that coconut oil holds it structure better under heat and is better to use. Because of all this I’ve been looking into different diets, such as the raw diet because, essentially overheating kills the important enzymes that our body needs. All in all, it seems very interesting, but the more knowledge we can obtain, the better choices we can make for ourselves. We’ll see.
I am going to check out what the white vinegar in Australia is made out of, I can’t imagine it is corn as we don’t tend to use it here like you do in the US!
I don’t know if you saw this, but I found it really informative. I’ll be using ACV from now on.
http://www.theecomum.com/1/post/2011/11/eco-myth-busting-myth-3-white-vinegar-is-the-greener-cleaner-nope.html
It’s really because everything is so money driven now a days that all these companies use all this jargon, like “natural, no sulfates, bla bla bla”, because they know people are wising up to what their eating or putting on their bodies. But really, you cannot trust anything, and this drives me nuts! They throw these words onto their labels to draw people in, but when you look at the ingredients it’s all the opposite. They’ll say, for instance, that a conditioner for your hair has “no sulfates” but in reality you don’t need sulfates on the conditioner, when sulfates are a surfactant designed only for shampoo; yet the conditioners are loaded with silicones. Grr. Or even a meat or dairy, for instance, will say “no hormones added, all natural”, but what about the other things that they don’t say like, “no antibiotics, or free range fed, so on”?
In reality, when you learn about chemistry in school, an element is pure (some are bad for you, and some are good), and when you react it with another element to form a compound (some also good for you and some are bad), it has no attributes to it that are original to the elements it is made from. For instance, Sodium (Na) is highly explosive, and Cl (chlorine gas) is highly toxic to us, yet once they are combined together, they form NaCl, which is just table salt, which is fine for us. Therefore, we wouldn’t really know how everything reacts with our bodies unless it is tested.
I guess I would call anything “natural” if it just came that way from this earth, or those ingredients from this earth, combined together, didn’t produce some kind of reaction. Yet, things on this earth could also be a result of a reaction that happened already. Yes, I’m a geek. Like hard soap; there’s been naturally occurring instances where lye combined with some kind of animal fat to make a natural soap.
Even castile soap, when you read the label, they combine coconut oil with another element by passing an electrical current though it, which yields glycerin as a by product. Is this natural? I don’t know, really, doesn’t sound it, but I’d rather use that than sodium lauryl sulfate, which I’ve used in molecular biology lab to break apart DNA strands, because SLS sounds a lot worse!
There’s just way too much messing around with nature, and it’s really all about $. Like, really, do I need Red #2, or MSG, or have my foods bleached so they stay on the shelve longer, or even carrageenan (crushed up bugs used for red dye) added to my food. Just give me the natural food! I don’t care if it’s an ugly color! Another thing with those sweeteners too. Since I’m somewhat insulin resistant, I’ve really just tried to learn how to cut down on the sugar. I hate hate artificial sweeteners, and they are no good for you. Once you cut down on sugar, little by little, you start to appreciate the wholesome taste of things without anything added. Even stevia or agave, I know are more natural, taste funny to me. I hate the “low fat” stuff too. Most of the time low fat means a variety of things like there’s: artificial sweetener added, or some kind of thickening agent added, when in reality, the higher fat thing is probably better for us, than all the artificial crap.
I could really go on forever ranting. We need to go back to the days where we all have local farms, and grow all our own stuff.
I never heard of electrolytic saponif’n, and it’d be interesting to me if it exists. Meanwhile, SDS isn’t too effective at separating DNA strands by itself; it’s used at a low concentration in non-denaturing nucleic acid electrophoresis.
What you meant to say was cochineal/carmine/carminic acid (crushed up bugs for red dye). It’s very natural despite the ick factor. Only people who are concerned with aluminum should be concerned; carminic acid is plated on an aluminum salt as a “lake” in some applications. This however goes for all food dye “lakes”.
Carrageenan is a polysaccharide extracted from red seaweed that is often used as a vegan alternative to gelatin. It is also considered a natural product (you can technically make it at home). There is some evidence in lab animal models that it causes gastrointestinal damage but WHO generally regards it as safe for everyone except infants.
Agave . . . . . natural or not? apparently it is just another ‘corn syrup’ — highly processed and not good for us. Do I use it? well, I have one bottle that I’ll finish and then not buy more . . . . . .
and here I thought Xylitol was good! Guess I won’t be using that again!
It’s like we were sitting around ranting about the same things today! My family does not eat GMO – which is difficult, but doable. Good to know about the white vinegar, though we use apple cider vinegar here. Natural stevia is GREEN, by the way. About 10 years ago I ordered stevia powder, and it was green (as in the leaves were dried and powdered). Stevia today has maltodextrin in it (source: corn) if I am correct). It is also white so more people will use it – as appearance is everything in today’s world. Still, it has an aftertaste I don’t care for. I use sucanat instead, raw honey, or maple syrup. If I can find a birch tree in the woods, I’d add that sap as well. My main rules: I stay away from anything processed as much as I can. We eat lots of fresh fruits and veggies, use no poo in the shower (using baking soda and ACV), and lots of times just plain old water and a cloth to clean. Flylady’s swish n swipe method allows for that to really work out nicely with no scrubbing. We also avoid petroleum products and plastics of any kind, really. We use glass, and metal only when glass isn’t allowed somewhere. Avoid like the plague for us: HFCS, artificial/processed sweeteners, hydrogenated oils, and petroleum products (due to DD’s allergy), also use vodka and baking soda on the pits (or none at all when dairy free)
I saw your comment on soap, and if you look at how it originated – they discovered their clothes were cleaner in the river water down from where the campfire was – where the animal fats and ashes mixed with the rainwater, and went into the streams. When they tried to make soap at first, it was very harsh or very mild, not very calculated. Now it is calculated, as each oil has a value so you can measure how much oil and lye (which was from the ashes) should be used. While I’ve made soap for many years, I still wash with water and a wash rag or baking soda.
YAY FlyLady! I agree that cleaning routines and habits help me not have to use as much if any cleaning products, and that soap and water will usually do the job. : )
I avoid HFC and partially hydrogenated oils like the plague. And I’ll admit, I avoid them not necessarily because of any natural or unnatural considerations, but simply because they make you fat. For the same reason, I try to indulge in white sugar as little as possible (although I’m currently pregnant, so my resistance to cravings is at an all-time low).
And yeah, I’ll be keeping my distilled white vinegar around, too. And, for now, my “green” chemical cleaning products. Right now, making a major switch to more natural stuff would just take too much effort (see: pregnancy). ; )
This is pretty scary! #SoMuchToLearn ….Anyway, because I’m a dog lover and Xylitol is a toxic killer to dogs, it is strictly forbidden in any form in my home. Not negotiable. White Vinegar concerns me a great deal. I buy the cheapie/generic stuff at Target. I’ve never used vinegar in cooking (if absolutely needed, lemon or lime juice will work for me) but I now fear I may be harming myself, my animals, friends & family, etc. by using Vinegar in my laundry or cleaning. Yikes!
Ugh. I make my own toothpaste and use xylitol in it. My teeth (and husbands) have never been better and we use it for the oral ‘benefits’. I cant go back to commercialy made. Now I’m sad. Does anyone have any ideas for a substitute??
When I was making the effort (pre-pregnancy) to make my own toothpaste, I used stevia. Highly recommend. : )
I use baking soda!
We make our own toothpaste out of bentonite clay, cinnamon, cloves, & sea salt. The bulk herb store has a basic recipe that’s great. We always used TraderJ’s toothpaste & the kids were abit reluctant to change…they now love it!
Try anise – I boiled some star anise in water (you could probably boil it in vodka even, if you didn’t want to add something water-based to your toothpaste), and then removed the anise, just leaving the flavored water. It’s very sweet and when added to our homemade toothpaste, didn’t really result in a licorice flavoring – just a little sweetening (then again, we also dumped a healthy dose of peppermint extract in there). Even if you aren’t a “black licorice” fan, it should still be a winner 🙂
I should also add, it only takes a TINY bit to add some sweetness, so don’t go overboard, as anise in large quantities is a diuretic. I can’t imagine you’ll end up with too much in your system just from brushing your teeth, but for reference, when used in cooking stews, usually only one star (clove?) is used.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/nancy-heck-michelli/homemade-tooth-soap-recipes-and-brightening-tooth-scrub/10150409835764464
My disillusionment of the year has been with agave nectar – even “organic.” The plant is not naturally sweet, and undergoes extensive processing, refining, and chemical changes to produce the syrup. Read it from a manufacturer’s own website:
http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/HechoEnMexico.html. It’s controversial as to how healthy/unhealthy it really is, but like you said, although it starts out natural…does it end up there?
I’ve read about his whole agave controversy too and its quite disappointing. I loved using agave in my iced coffee drinks because it blended in much better than honey or raw sugar. But I stopped using it just because I wasn’t sure who to believe. I read the company’s website of the brand I was buying they seemed legit, but then you still have to wonder…I don’t know why the whole agave thing bothered me so much. I guess because I knew that manufacturer’s stretched the truth with their advertising and packaging, but the agave thing just seems like such a total and complete lie, somehow more wrong than lying on a box of sugarcrunchsweetiesmacks.
Thankfully, now this is both a blessing and a HUGE, PITA, un-convenient curse, I have a corn allergy.
No, not an intolerance, thank you very much (in case anyone wanted to jump on that bandwagon, just covering my bases :)), but an actual food allergy. It’s 1 out of 10. 10 as in food allergies. I’m allergic to all the good stuff. And for this reason, I cannot go near white vinegar.
If I inhale white vinegar fumes, I end up with involuntarily-wanting-to-vomit issues for several hours, the fact that I can taste, yes taste the smell which makes it worse, and then get stabbed-in-the-gut pain for about a week. And that’s just a couple of the “perks”. I have been becoming more and more Crunchy due to the this. Do you have any idea how disgusting mainstream food is? Because it’s pretty freaking gross. And corn is in -E V E R Y T H I N G-! Seriously. Look on the back of your baking powder container. This includes Xylitol, artificial sweetener, “Natural” sweetener that does not label the source, and Splenda. All corn has been eradicated from my house (for the most part, it’s hard, it’s even in coffee filters), plus, GMO’s are pretty freaking gross. Might as well spray Round Up on everything and get it over with.
I can use products containing some corn properties, it just cannot have a corn (or coconut, yay allergies) base. The list that showed the deceivingly “natural” product, thankfully I was onto them a loooooong time ago. I do however use Suave naturals conditioner to clean my hair, but only because I keep forgetting to check out the organic section of my grocery store before I run out…then have to make an emergency run to the pharmacy on the corner, and at 1.20 a bottle, it’s cheaper than whatever else they try to rip me off with.
I’m just so sick of products no one can pronounce, the overly perfume smell to absolutely everything (Same goes for you, Burt’s Bees, in your Gud line!), everyone wanting to jump on the “Natural” bandwagon and why the heck does everything have to be antibacterial?! We were fine without it back in the day, yo!
I draw the line if I have to buy something, in which I go for the natural section, but if I can smell it through the plastic bottle, then I absolutely refuse to even think about purchasing it.
If we absolutely have to, we will buy the “faux-tural” products, but I try to go for the one with the smallest ingredient list. We are going out of our way to avoid main stream crap or anything stamped with “natural” or “organic” that looks suspiciously cheap, and I haven’t researched yet. The less ingredients, the better, and even more stoke-tastic if I can make it.
And that’s is my over-caffinated ramblings of the day, please allow me to go annoy the germs in my shower whilst I try to sing along to The Who and get clean.
Oh my gosh, I thought it was difficult to cut sugar and all of it’s many friends (artificial sweeteners, dextrose, honey, maple syrup, agave, etc.)! (Now it’s a blessing and a gift in MANY ways!) I knew corn was in too many things, but coffee filters is something new to me, Ugh. It is appalling to read ingredients lists on what we previously considered food in the main stream markets especially. It’s pretty shocking to learn all the many toxins, chemicals, & mystery ingredients that go into “food.” Yikes! Thanks for sharing a bit of your story, struggles & honesty. Good luck in your journey!
Ahh, a topic near to my heart. I try to avoid most anything I can’t pronounce on ingredient lists. Of course, we aren’t crazy about it..its more a 90/10 split as to how insane I get over it. Otherwise, it would consume me and there are other things I can be obsessed with. I make our cleaners, so I don’t have any worries there. I agree with a couple of other comments about vinegar and that I would rather use GMO corn than petroleum by products (except I don’t like supporting GMO products…looks like I need to invest in some soap nuts!).
That being said, besides unpronounceable names (whether they are “natural” or not), I definitely avoid MSG at all costs. You can buy MSG in containers in the spice section (labelled as “ac’cent”…horrifying)…its labeled as an “natural” food enhancer. Which is misleading. Yeah, there are tiny amounts of unprocessed glutamate in some foods, but when you process it, it becomes dangerous. Plus it gives me splitting headaches if I happen to eat anything with it in there.
I also tend to avoid anything I know is probably from a GMO. Just because I don’t want my dollars to support GMO propagation. I also try to avoid corn based products because, again, so much corn is GMO and corn production is a cycle of “grow more corn, make more things to use up the corn, so we can grow more corn” (Michael Pollan’s book “The Omnivore’s Dilemma” does a good job explaining it. Go. Read it.)
I don’t know a lot about artificial sweeteners, other than that I just don’t use them. Nothing beats honey or raw sugar (or some good southern cane syrup!). I don’t even use agave any more because I’ve read some things about it, saying that its just as bad as HFCS.
I think the further away from the original product of nature you get, the better it is to avoid. Even if its labelled as “natural”. If it has a chemically sounding name, no matter how “natural” its claimed to be, it generally doesn’t end up in my house. Its easier to avoid that way than by trying to learn what every chemical name means and where it comes from. OMG that would make you insane!
Do you consider the items on the list above as “natural”
ingredients?
The word “natural” has been so distorted for me over the years that I pretty much ignore it in the context of food. I may have a slightly less opaque filter on that word in other contexts. “Found in nature” may be more accurate, but like someone else mentioned, hybrid plants have always confused me. Cross-breeding animals and plants isn’t exactly undisturbed nature, but one can find the results of those “experiments” in nature. In fact, it is rather challenging to NOT find them. By the same token, though, we compost directly in our soil and we get OODLES of volunteer edible plants that taste good, so some of what we are eating is good for us since it reproduces on its own…
Are products created from excessive chemical extraction and
reaction something you consciously and specifically avoid?
I guess so. I make products (body care and household) for clients and I ran out of sweet almond oil. While preparing to place an order, I also checked all my other inventory items and noticed my vitamin E oil is very low. When researching replacements, I found T-50 vitamin E oil. After reading about it, I decided I would not be purchasing it solely because of the number of processes it goes through. It just felt too removed from it’s natural state (found in nature). Instead of finding a different form, I have opted to use meadowfoam seed oil instead despite the cost difference.
Do you have any ingredients that you DO avoid like the plague? Are they “natural” or not?
I avoid all artificial sweeteners like the plague. They make me feel sick and icky for various periods of time. Even stevia and xylitol and agave, which some folks consider natural sweeteners. My understanding is they go through several processes and each one changes the end product more and more. All I know is I feel AWFUL: my tongue itches & swells and my eyes water & itch and some give me WICKED headaches; others make my throat itch & swell; others make my stomach hurt. Sugar and honey (and most fruit) are thus far the only sweeteners that cause no such reaction. After reading about the processes stevia undergoes before being used in foods/drinks, I went to my favorite local nursery and asked if I could taste a stevia leaf from the plant. (I was interested in growing the plant to avoid the processing, if that indeed is why it gives me such an awful reaction.) The employee was really nice and we had a GREAT experience together that day learning from each other. I pulled off about half of a small leaf and she recommended only tasting a small part of that, so I chewed about half of what I plucked. She watched my face carefully as I gagged and tried to scrub my tongue clean, then handed me a different plant to taste immediately after seeing I was mostly okay (not an allergic reaction).
Where do YOU draw the line at natural?
My line is wavy and has dashed lines here and there. I’m still learning and like I stated upfront, the word “natural” means very little to me anymore. Most humans are well beyond the hunting and gathering stage of our evolutionary tale. I grow edibles (veg, fruit, herbs) in my small space and we have a CSA and we cook and eat at home most of the time. I make my own household cleaners and many bodycare products, using simple ingredients. We feed our cat a raw food diet fitting with her obligate carnivore status. The rest we learn and discover along the way in this fabulous journey called life.
I think that cross breeding plants is okay, if they are using more, I guess, simple practices (for lack of a better word) like cross pollination using the pollen of the plants, or grafting on to root stock of different plants. I draw more of a line at “laboratory” plants where they take the genetics of the plant and using science to alter the basic genes of the plant. Plants cross pollinate in nature all the time. They don’t jump on to a lab table and say “Hey! Make me Round-up Ready!”
And I agree about the stevia plant…I haven’t found any type of stevia that my mouth has liked. Yuck. Give me honey or raw sugar any day!
How do you know the difference, though? Not being snarky, just curious.
If companies were more honest in the use of words, such as natural, then I might feel more comfortable with hybrid plants. As it is now, though, if I can create it (layperson with some education in gardening), then it is okay with me. If it requires a scientist, lab or not, then I don’t necessarily trust it. Simply too much is hidden from consumers nowadays.
I prefer seeds over plants for this reason (and others). I have read in numerous places that, THUS FAR, GMO seeds are not in the retail/consumer market. Some plants don’t grow from seeds, though, so I do my best by buying from a local, family-owned business and ask questions.
I should clarify: First, you are correct in that it is all about who you personally trust. By “they” referring to people cross pollinating, I was referring to people like small scale plant propagators or your neighborhood greenhouse operator or people with horticulture degrees (who do it for themselves or friends/family…like myself) who know how to responsibly graft plants or cross pollinate…people who do it for the betterment of the plant, not just the betterment of the planter and/or government. That type of cross breeding is okay. I’m supporting reputable businesses where you can ask questions and get answers, not multi million dollar corporations with closed door policies on their possibly questionable practices. And when something (such as a tomato plant) is labeled as “hybrid” it means it has been cross pollinated by a breeder, not genetically altered on a molecular level by a scientist.
I support my local businesses as well because what you see is what you get. And I also enjoy starting plants from seeds, especially if I’m going to be eating the resulting plant because there is a greater sense of satisfaction and personal accountability when you start something from a baby seed.
Thank you! I think we are on the same page and you just helped me understand and put into words a few things I have been pondering. 🙂
Welcome! 🙂
I’d like to know what you ate after trying the evidently ‘nasty’ stevia leaf. My sister would have let me eat the piece I pulled off,she’s ‘funny’ like that.(not funny to ME-but I get her back-even if it takes years! Grape Popsicle dipped in Vodka, not good,but SHE tried it! Had waited 5 years for that one!) Also, ‘CSA’? I’m new here…I imagine allergies of some sort? Thank -you! Best of life to you & yours!
Kris
The most immediate plant after the ghastly stevia leaf was a delicious ‘chewing gum’ variety of spearmint. Positively delightful on the tongue!
CSA = community supported agriculture, which basically means we have a farm share (We pay the farm each quarter and we receive a share of the bounty that they grow.)
This is an awesome place to hang out! Hope to see you around again. 🙂
Wow, such a fast answer! And I appreciate the info!! Thanks! I live on 15 acres(mostly wooded)-but have so much wild life, like deer, that we don’t have a garden. Well, that & ill heath in partner-I’m in w/c, but do know I COULD grow things in ‘boxes’- stacked tires(toxic?),or some such, but I’m rotten with my nurturing skills & lazy,to be honest!-I killed several cacti (us?) plants. Growing things…does not work for me. I would like to buy healthy stuff, it’s extremely expensive on a very limited income… I do like baking soda & a pinch of salt(hear a groan out there?)instead of toothpaste! A small step for me,with many more to come since I found you!! Thanks so much!
My dad has a stevia plant and uses stevia leaves as a sweetener all the time. I think it tastes great. He doesn’t buy processed stevia though. I feel like that is too processed to be called natural.
I think it sweetens things it’s in but doesn’t really taste good by itself.
CSA – Community supported agriculture; a purchased “crop share” from local gardeners. 🙂
And you already knew that! Sorry! 🙂
he white vinegar disturbed me. The rest I try to avoid anyhow.
I would like to mention that raw stevia…as raw as picking the leaves off the plant should be counted as natural. If that’s too much for some misguided diehard stevia haters, there is always coconut sugar. Can’t fault that harvest process as unnatural…well you could, but you’d be wrong. lol
Did you know that even apples themselves could be considered unnatural? That as recently as good old Johnny Appleseed, apples were tart, inedible things, and used to make apple cider? That “an apple a day keeps the doctor away” was invented when prohibition happened, so that the farmers didn’t have to switch out their crops entirely? That the apple as we know it today is from a tiny little berry from Kazakhstan?
Today, due to a host of digestive issues, I have to avoid apples due to this very process. They are too high in fructose for my body to handle, due to years of damage from celiac disease. Dealing with issues like this really makes you think about the world in a whole new light. For example, I can still eat raw honey – it is far higher in sugar than an apple, but the nature of the sugar hasn’t changed, whereas apples have in quite a fundamental way, and quite recently.
With this experience, I am not sure that I can say I have a line. Or perhaps I can say that it is where my body tells me it is. I am an individual, and most people find apples a very healthy addition to their diet. I do not. Many people are sensitive to specific ingredients in products, others are not. I think as long as we do not loose touch with ourselves, do not loose respect for our bodies, and are aware of what is really going on and in our bodies, then we can continue to make these decisions on an individual basis.
Ugh, I had no idea about the vinegar. We generally only use it for cleaning, acv or red wine vinegar for food. But still, I really appreciate the knowledge and will keep my eyes open on that one. Petroleum?!?
I absolutely hate artificial sweeteners – and even “natural” ones like xylitol and stevia. Even when I was a child, altering the flavour of my tea or food by adding sugar just seemed wrong. Still, in my adulthood, I avoid it; I prefer the things I consume to taste just as they are. Plus, as others have said, honey is healthy enough to be used as a substitute, and has many other uses as well.
….is putting splenda in my tea going to help me get over this head cold? No, I didn’t think so….
Hopefully this post is mostly in English. The aforementioned headcold causes communication problems.
Why does it matter what the vinegar is made out of? Whatever the source, it’s still being turned into dilute CH3COOH. There is no difference between two molecules of acetic acid.
Well, because one molecule of acetic acid could come from petroleum by-products, and one molecule could come from a plant. There may not be a “difference” to you, but that is a world of difference to me. I’d rather use GMO corn distilled white vinegar than a petroleum by-product. Molecularly, though… no, there isn’t a difference at all.
I second this, Marsha. Eventually, it gets into “what industry would you rather support?” Molecularly, there may be little difference, but in the end, I’d really rather avoid supporting the petroleum industry any more than I already do with gas for my car and the plastics that make up some of my appliances/electronics, etc. I think the whole idea is to be less dependent on petroleum, and kicking it out of my kitchen, as much as humanly possible, is a small start.
Kicking petroleum completely out of the kitchen sure is hard, though. I am NOT giving up my food processor…no way, no how. I sure do hate when I have to pick the lesser of the two evils. 🙁
Because my daughter is allergic to petroleum! Allergic as in severe swelling, ate a hole in her mandible, weeks in the hospital allergic. She cannot even wear polyester clothes or play with toys that have that “smell”. It matters… to me, to her, and her life.
I use xylitol, made from birch trees in the USA. 2 tsp. a day for my teeth. For me it’s a compromise. After spending my 20’s getting SO MANY FILLINGS – I was willing to try anything for my teeth. Eight years later, I haven’t had any cavities in that entire time and my children are the only ones I know with no teeth problems. But I have to admit that I’m terrified and obsessive about teeth, so I’d probably do almost anything to help them.
Investigate ! Try the Finnish sites – they have lots of birches.
HFCS – I don’t even care for the taste, even if it was considered “natural”. My general rule of thumb is that if it needs to be created in a lab, it’s not natural. It’s not the way nature intended us to consume it. That’s as far as definitions go. But just because it’s not my definition of “natural” doesn’t mean I avoid it like the plague. I tried to keep up with all this stuff when I first started learning about ingredients in foods/personal/household products, and I made myself CRAAAAZZZYYYY! I can’t live like that anymore. High blood pressure and constant stress is just as bad, if not worse, than exposure to some of this junk. I like to follow EWG’s guide on things, and if a product I’m interested in rates low, I feel okay using it. The higher it rates, the more I feel the need to find a more natural ( or less toxic) substitute.
I would still consider vinegar to be a “natural” product, but as I had never heard of the others, I have no opinion. As to distilled vinegar being made from corn, most of the vegetables we have access to in the grocery stores, even the natural food stores’ “organic veggies”, have been genetically modified to some extent, since they are hybrids. It is very difficult to find seeds/plantings for non-hybridized vegetables. You have to go to a specialty website and it is pretty cost-prohibitive. A good way to check if your produce is hybridized is to plant or try to sprout the seeds. If they grow, they’re not a hybrid. Hybrids, with a few exceptions, are sterile.
Like you, my stomach does not tolerate any fake or artificial sugars. I’ve tried stevia in the liquid extract form and just never mastered correct dosage.. ended up with bitterness and I never got used to the taste. So I stick with organic cane.
There seem to be a few people with very strong feelings against stevia and I’m sure it’s a topic for another post but I’ve not heard that side of things so I’m curious.
Ugh! Even white vinegar is a petroleum byproduct? Or GMO-corn based? Thanks for enlightening me!
For me, HFCS is high on my s**t list. As is stevia. And xylitol.
I use very little sugar (I don’t bake). Organic cane for my kombucha primary brew and agave for the secondary brew.
That’s it.
I am new to all this and the information is amazingly eye opening and overwhelming all at the same time. I am trying to learn more everyday and make changes when and where I can. I haven’t learned anything in life that was easy to do at first but I am hoping that like walking or talking it will one day become second nature to me. Thank you for all of your knowledge you share.
If you’re going to target cocamidopropyl betaine, you may as well add every surfactant in the book – they are ALL made by some sort of chemical reaction. Unless you want to use exclusively soapnuts or soapwort, you won’t find a ‘natural’ surfactant. 🙂
This is actually the discussion I wanted to have, because many people get very confused and “lost down the rabbit hole” with this. I know you’re really fond of cocamidopropyl betaine, Lise (I figured I’d wake up to a comment from you about this)!
And, goodness knows, my point in asking this question is asking EVERYONE what their distinction is between “natural” and not.
Here’s the difference I see between cocamidopropyl betaine and, say, soap (as the more natural example of a surfactant).
Cocamidopropyl betaine is a singular ingredient that’s the final result of being run through several chemical reactions. You’re reacting coconut oil once to get something else, and then again to get something wholly different. It’s gone through several “changes” at this point, and in my estimation can no longer be considered natural, and it also carries the possibility of being contaminated by the reactants.
Cocamidopropyl betaine isn’t an end product, but an ingredient. Is that INGREDIENT natural? THAT is my question and what I’ve asked everyone to ponder.
Soap, on the other hand, (and, of course, we’re talking about the most natural of soaps) is made from INGREDIENTS that are natural, but when combined, you get a surfactant. It’s not unlike baking bread. Would we say that because we mixed together flour, yeast, and water and got something different that bread isn’t natural?
THAT is the distinction I’m trying to make (and I wish I would have had the brain ability to write that in the post last night!).
I’m not so much answering the Grand Questions here, as I am asking everyone to think about how they determine what’s natural and what’s not.
The farther you get away from a natural state (coconut+chemical=chemical, chemical+chemical=chemical) the more likely it is that your ingredient will be contaminated or cause problems. The more complex a structure or process, the more fragile and prone to complications it is.
That being said, I did say that cocamidopropyl betaine is a better choice than SLS or SLES. I just don’t think we can consider it a “natural” ingredient.
CrunchyBetty,
Since I am absolutely new here, I was somewhat(okay, a LOT, really) confused…but this DID help me, thank you! I still don’t have a line to draw, but am enjoying learning,which I am so grateful for. It doesn’t come easy for me,at 55,(and many concussions-different forum!) to know just what you are talking about after blindly going along with “what’s out there” being so ‘easy’ to get & use. But I’m excited to learn and change! Thank you for all your work and the sharing! 😉
kris b
Hi Betty.
One can categorize whether or not an ingredient is natural by asking 2 simple questions.”1. Does the substance exist in nature?
2. Is the substance extracted from nature without any chemical modification?
Only if the answer to both questions is yes can the substance truly be described as natural.”
(I am quoting Dene Godfrey here). I would have added a link to his post, but I haven’t had all kinds of luck adding links to comments lately. Suffice to say, his article ‘100% Natural, almost 100% certainly not’ can be found at the Personal Care Truth or Scare blog.
As for the different surfactants. I’m really not more partial to one or the other surfactant to be quite honest. Even the ‘controversial’ surfactant SLS is justified – even preferrable – for use in some formulas (even for use on humans). No, I don’t use it in my products, but I wouldn’t warn anyone against it either.
It’s very very hard to draw a line and say some surfactants are better than others. If you are looking at them with ‘green’ glasses, not a single one of them can be accepted as ‘natural’ – not even the ‘newest’ sugar-based surfactants in the Suganate family.
And don’t even get me started on preservatives… 🙂
So it matters how many rxn steps — and possibly “workup” (purif’n & other mods) steps — the synthesis is? Trouble is, counting from what starting point? In soap making, how many steps is it to make the lye? You could burn stuff to make ashes and then purify them, but today that’d be done only by a few hobbyists and people in very remote areas. Otherwise, it’s a mineral synthesis process of several steps that can come from common salt and produce chlorine or chlorine products as by-product, or from other minerals. Or, because lye is so simple a compound, do you figure it as a given and not count any of its mfg. steps?
And it’s not like you’d get off the hook by considering any surfactant other than soap. It’d be the same question of where you start from.
Do you weight the type of rxn required according to how extreme their conditions are, the use of metal catalysts, etc.? Like for instance SLS, SLES, and lots of like compounds are made by sulfonation under pretty harsh conditions, with sulfuric acid or fuming sulfuric acid, while sulfosuccinates are sulfonation products too but made under much gentler conditions using sulfite salts. However, the sulfuric acid neutralizes to innocuous sulfate salts, while sulfites need to be oxidized away to neutralize their biologic properties.
I know I’m resurrecting an old thread here, but I am really scratching my head on this ingredient. I’ve been no poo for a couple years now but I’ve never been able to get it to fully work for me so a few weeks ago I decided to try making some Castile based shampoos but those weren’t quite cutting it either so right now I’m staring at a bottle of everyday Shea shampoo by Allafia which was the one I picked because it only has about five ingredients… But this is one and I can’t figure out if I’m ok with using. The skin deep database rates it as a 3(low to moderate) in danger. I don’t want to pollute my body or the waterways but darn I miss having silky soft and smooth hair. In the year and a half since this was posted, have you learned any more about this ingredient?
Interesting, as vinegar was next on my list of things to investigate (i.e. when the zombie apocalypse hits, what am I going to clean my kettle with??? and such nonsense). I’ve always had an intuitive preference for ACV – does anyone know if ACV is a viable alternative in all applications for white vinegar?
HFCS – lucky enough to live in Australia, where it’s really only found in imported junk food. Everything I ate when I was in the States a couple of years ago tasted weird because EVERYTHING seemed to have it in the ingredients list. Gross. Wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole. Sugar, now…oh, do I have a weakness for sugar. Doh.
Xylitol – nope. With that name? Hell no. Stevia is the devil’s own weed, as far as I’m concerned, too, so when the time comes for the aforementioned zombie apocalypse I’ll have caches of honey left and right. Keeps well, doncha know, and good for first-aid.
I really appreciate your harder-hitting posts, truly I do. I’m so glad I found this blog.
I think most people say its better not to use ACV on white counters and things like that because it could stain. But I usually use ACV too, and because its diluted, I’ve never had any trouble with it.
I will look you up when the zombies come. Between my honey and yours, we can rule the zombie world!
Sweet, it’s good to get someone else’s firsthand experience. I’ll make the switch, and hopefully learn to make my own vinegar at some point, too!
OMG VINEGAR!!!! Need to run to kitchen now to check out the white vinegar I use for cleaning. But before I do – THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.